In this weekās episode of The Envelope video podcast, āLessons in Chemistryā star Aja Naomi King opens up about overcoming her fears about launching a career as an actor and Michelle King and Jonathan Tolins take us inside their popular new procedural, āElsbeth.ā
Yvonne Villarreal: Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of The Envelope podcast. Iām one of your hosts, Yvonne Villarreal.
Shawn Finnie: Shawn Finnie.
Mark Olsen And Iām Mark Olsen.
Villarreal: Weāve got another great episode with two incredible interviews. Shawn, why donāt you tell us who you spoke with?
Finnie: I spoke with the multitalented Aja Naomi King. We really, really know her from āHow to Get Away With Murder,ā but sheās starring in āLessons and Chemistryā opposite Brie Larson. Have you ever seen the show yet?
Villarreal: Yes.
Finnie: To me, itās a show about dreams and identity. It follows Elizabeth Zott, who is Brie Larsonās character, who has dreams and aspirations to be a scientist, but society is basically saying, āYou donāt belong here as a woman.ā And it just follows an interesting time in our American culture in the 1950s, ā60s. And Ajaās character, to me, is so interesting because she has dreams of her own, but sheās also kind of thrust into protecting her community and she forms this relationship with Elizabeth. … We talked about her upbringing, and honestly, we talked about this too, Mark, what it actually takes to do this job [of] acting. And she speaks very candidly about her upbringing and her mom and her relationship with how [her parents] really believed in her and how that kept her [on track] in moments when she wasnāt getting the gig. So we had a really a really good conversation.
Villarreal: I also like that her character in the book is different than the one we see on screen.
Finnie: We spoke about that too, which is interesting. Her character in the book did not look the same as Aja Naomi King and that was very intentional. … It was a decision that they made, and they really expanded upon her character too, which we got to see in her playing Harriet Sloane. What about you?
Villarreal: I spoke with the creative minds behind āElsbeth,ā which is this new procedural on CBS, and it sort of takes a page from āColumbo.ā So this is a show from Michelle and Robert King, who were the duo behind āThe Good Wifeā and The Good Fight.ā And this takes one of the characters from those shows and sort of launches her in New York. But theyāre not really calling it a spinoff because the tone is different, itās more comedic and itās like not as serialized. So we talk a little about that. It centers on Elsbeth Tascioni, who in āThe Good Fightā and āThe Good Wifeā is this lawyer, but now that sheās in New York, sheās sort of taking on a more detective role as she sort of keeps her eye on the NYPD and their investigations, and sheās sort of seeing, like, are they doing things right? But sheās also keeping tabs on the captain of the police squad. So itās very interesting. I spoke with Michelle, but also showrunner Jonathan Tolins about giving [Elsbeth] this different backdrop. So it was fun.
Olsen: Well, that sounds really great, and weāll get to that in just a few minutes. But first we have Shawnās interview with Aja Naomi King.
Aja Naomi King in āLessons in Chemistry.ā
(Apple TV+)
Shawn Finnie: Welcome back to The Envelope. My name is Shawn Finnie and today I am sitting with the force that is Aja Naomi King. We are talking about all things Miss Harriet Sloane in āLessons in Chemistry.ā …
Powerful performance, which we are going to get into. But first, because I really believe who we are really impacts what we do and why, so Iām going to go back to a little place called Walnut.
Aja Naomi King: Walnut. Walnut, California.
Finnie: To little Aja with no cellphone, when all you had was your imagination and how that led you to Yale and gave you this, this idea and courage about acting.
King: So for me to actually do that, I have to take it back even further. Iāve got to take it back to my mother, Teresa Moore King, who grew up in New York. And all she wanted to do was create. While growing up in the ā50s, ā60s [in] New York, her and her sisters [were] making their own clothes, renting out clubs and putting on fashion shows and charging people tickets to do this. … So, Teresa, the foundation of everything that I am, she continues to inspire me just with her joy of life. And so being raised by that kind of woman, who only ever saw possibility, thatās where it began for me. And itās funny because even when you have parents like mine who just ā I be like, āI want to run track and field. I want to be a cheerleader. I want to be in an honors program,ā they were just like, āAll right, go ahead and do it. We worked this hard to get this far so that whatever thought popped into your mind, you could just go and do it and not think about it twice.ā But of course, as you grow older, the world ā society ā tries to teach you something else and make you feel like those things arenāt as graspable. That that is a flight of fancy. And it really has been my parents and their belief in me that allowed me to even begin to pursue this. So little Aja could have all these dreams because I had the backup. I had my army of ancestors just saying, āGo on ahead. We wonāt let anything get in your way.ā
Thatās where I began. Because when I think about my mom in New York doing all this stuff ā
Finnie: At that time.
King: At that time, right? And then she came out to L.A. and was like, āOh, I can conquer this. I can do this here too.ā And so her just having that strength and passion and vision and endowing me and my little sisters with that, that became the baseline for our lives. But then, you know, you go to school and you meet other kids and you see how difficult things can be. Especially when you donāt believe in yourself. Especially when you donāt have anyone telling you that you should believe in yourself, you know? And so then the idea of doing this was like ā
Finnie: Thatās for somebody else.
King: Or the version of this that I could do would never look like this. Like, I wonāt be Angela [Bassett]. Thereās only one her. … Still is only one. Let it be known. That played a role too. We knew who these incredibly talented Black women, these powerful forces of nature, we knew who they were. But for us growing up, they werenāt totally mainstream.
Finnie: They were ours.
King: They were ours, and that was so special to have that. But it became a limiting idea of what was possible, and now I think they have been given so much, but at that time, they should have been given so much more. So it was hard to enter into this with the idea of like, āSo then what is it going to look like for me? Because I donāt think I can get to where they like, and they already deserve so much more than what theyāre getting.ā
But then I guess I had my come-to-Jesus moment. The thing that I was trying to do, the, the person I was trying to become, I was failing at, because it wasnāt truly in my spirit to be that. I was trying to be a doctor. And I mean, when I tell you I get sick of the sight of blood. I mean, I love people. But I donāt want to bandage you up. I donāt want to see you hurt.
Finnie: But thereās also, like, a perceived idea of societyās version of success and what success is. So you even probably pursuing that was like, āThis is successful.ā
King: Let me tell you something. Itās not only the perceived idea of what success is, it is also the idea of what safety is. … Itās like, now you add value. This will keep you safe. This will keep your family safe. You will have somewhere to go. You can provide. You will be necessary. So there was such a safety in that idea. And then going outside of the bounds of that safety, I basically had a nervous breakdown in high school because I felt like I was defying so much within myself, that safety that I desired, by going out on a limb and and pursuing acting, pursuing a creative art. …
And itās so funny because my parents, they never thought it was insane. They never said to me, āThatās crazy. Donāt do that.ā It was all the oppressive, societal ideas that made me feel like, āThatās crazy, you canāt do that.ā I just remember sobbing to my mom, like, āI canāt be a doctor. I canāt do this.ā
Finnie: You probably feel like youāre letting them down.
King: I remember them holding me and just being like, āThatās OK. We want you to be happy. We didnāt do all this for you to struggle in some idea of what youāre supposed to be.ā It blew my mind because I was looking at them like, āNo, donāt you understand? Youāre supposed to convince me Iām doing the wrong thing, guys. Iām going in the wrong direction.ā … Also, they thought I was good at it. They saw success for me in this beyond what I could see for myself. Maybe thatās love, or parenting, but I hope Iām able to do the same thing for my child too.
Finnie: Itās freedom, it sounds like. Freedom to dream.
King: To believe so much in someone else that it grants them a freedom that they never thought that they could experience for themselves.
Finnie: Thatās beautiful. Youāve mentioned her name already, but I know that when you got accepted to Yale, you got a phone call from a certain individual. I think a missed call, and then you heard the voicemail and you called her back. Tell us a little bit about that, because I think itās important as we talk about powerful figures, even in your character in āLessons in Chemistry.ā
King: At this point Iāve done undergrad, Iāve gone to UC Santa Barbara, Iām still pursuing acting. Iām going to grad school. Iāve gotten accepted into Yale Universityās MFA acting program. … And the Angela Bassett calls my cellphone.
Finnie: Because your momās friend knew her.
King: My mom had a friend who knew her. My mom didnāt ask for that. She was just telling her friend how excited she was for me. That friend got a message to Angela, got her my cellphone number. … I get a call on my cellphone from a private number.
Finnie: We donāt answer those. We donāt need those, because theyāre calling and asking for something we donāt want to give.
King: Like, āI donāt know what this is.ā Get a voicemail. Listen to the voicemail. And I lost my mind. Because Angela Bassett left me a message saying, āHey, this is Angela Bassettā ā which already was like, āWhat?ā ā āI heard you got into Yale. Just giving you a call. Iāll call you back later.ā
Finnie: Casually.
King: And then what do you do?
Finnie: You scream. Look at it. Play it back.
King: Hold your phone and stand there staring at like, āAngela says sheās going to call back, so Iām just going to stand here and wait for her to call back. … We had not met at that time, and she called me back and we talked on the phone probably for like 30, 45 minutes. She told me about her experience of that school, her experience of being a Black woman in this industry, and how you have to fight for yourself and believe in your vision of yourself and what you deserve. For me, actually, the best piece of advice that she gave me on this call was, while at school especially, to just be open, to be open to all the direction. To play, to truly play and be open and explore it and see where it takes you. To go on that journey, and then decide if that feels right and to make an acting choice based off of that. And that has kind of been my guiding light in terms of how I work. To believe in openness and collaboration and play and to fully do the choice and to see where it takes you, to explore that, and then let it go if itās not going to serve the character. Allow yourself to go in a different direction, allow yourself to make a mistake, allow yourself to fail. It was just really beautiful, but I guess kind of the most beautiful thing she taught me in that moment of her taking the time to call me back, to share this advice with the perfect stranger, is the art and the generosity of paying that forward, of giving that to another up-and-coming artist, to be willing to have that conversation, to spend that time to engage. Itās something that like, regardless of where that person ends up on their journey, that they will cherish forever because you took the time to say, āTalking to you means something to me. I think you are valuable and important, and I want to share what I have learned with you.ā And we have to pass that on. We canāt gatekeep these gifts.
Finnie: And youāre important now. Because I think whatās the interesting part is sometimes the importance isnāt until the accolades or the awards or the nominations. And itās like, āOh no, youāre important as a student. And be a student and play and learn and listen and love and fall in love with that and then apply it.ā
Iām curious now how this goes into āLessons in Chemistry.ā … What now is a āhell yesā? When you are being presented an opportunity to be a part of a project, what is the āhell yesā factor, and what was the āhell yesā about this script for you?
King: In general, the āhell yesā factor is like the people that you get to work with. Thatās where Iām like, āOh, I really want that experience.ā Like, you get to work with Viola Davis.
Finnie: Yes, please.
King: Hell yes! Like, āHow much? Iāll pay you.ā And with this, itās like, āYou get to work with Brie Larson.ā I love her. Hell yes. I just love that my life has taken me, that my career has taken me, in this direction to work with such incredibly generous artists who give so much and are just so kind and loving on- and off-set. And then for this script specifically, when I first read it ā I got the script and I was like, āShould I read the book first? Should I read the script first?ā And I decided to read the book first to have a framework. I sobbed through this book. I thought the book was so beautiful. And then I read the script and I was like, āWow, they really did it.ā
So then in having conversations with our showrunner Lee Eisenberg, what I had originally sort of joined the project to do was going to undergo some changes. And then I was like, āWhat does that mean?ā I like what we had planned, so what are we gonna do? And then he proceeded to tell me this whole beautiful story of what he wanted to do with my character. And it was kind of taking over. Because originally I wasnāt really Harriet from the book. I was something else. And then he was like, āWe want you to be Harriet.ā
What he pitched to me in that moment I found so powerful and so inspiring. You know when you get that thing when you feel like a little kid and youāre like, āI want to do thatā? Thatās how I felt. Like, weāre going to dive into Black motherhood? And being a wife? And her aspirations beyond those two things in a time period [when] that was what was meant to define you, and sheās going to be defying all of that? And sheās an activist?
Finnie: Sheās a superhero.
King: Basically a superhero. And then to dive into the story of this neighborhood. There was a part of me that was like, āHe could just be saying this,ā because a lot of the time people can be full of sā. And I was just like, āCan I trust this man?ā …
I got script after script after script and they just weaved together this beautiful story of Harrietās life, showing the tension that was being built with my husband, showing the dichotomy between Elizabethās experience of life and Harrietās experience of struggle. And then a lot of it too was nonverbal. Seeing the moments where they just stay with me as Iām processing how I feel, I was so blown away. I felt like, āOh, so this man overpromised and delivered.ā
I was so grateful that it wasnāt just some side character that is only used so that we can learn more about the main character. No, we stay with her. We live with her. We understand her deeply. We see what sheās fighting for and we see the effect of that not only on her husband, but on her children ā
Finnie: And her relationship with Elizabeth and what she taught her.
King: And that being called into question and them having to earn that friendship. And we had discussions about that because that was so fundamental for us in building this community, that it was all earned, that you got to see it all so that you know we earned it. You could believe these two would be in each otherās lives because they have a transparency with one another.
Finnie: And an accountability. And an honesty. And a responsibility, I think, once you dove deeper. There was a scene specifically where Harriet was basically saying, like, āLook, I need you to show up for me. If youāre really about this life, then you should show up for me.ā And Elizabethās like, āIāll make it up to you. Iāll see you another time.ā And itās like, āThis is not my birthday.ā
King: This is not about me.
Finnie: This is really about the collective we, regardless of what you look like and I look like.
King: This is the neighborhood that we live in. Yeah. And that was the thing that I loved about Harriet. Sheās not just trying to save this neighborhood for herself or the people that look like her. Elizabeth lives there, too. And thatās what I found so profound about it. I love that one so much because she calls into question too Elizabethās audience. Itās like, āWho was this for?ā and āDo you understand the impact that you are able to make and what is the point if thereās no deeper purpose? You know, itās like you canāt pitch all this stuff about how you want equality and femininity āā
Finnie: And it only applies to some.
King: Exactly.
Finnie: I feel like the underlayer for me watching it is the dreams and identity. … Iām curious, for you, what that intersectionality of Harrietās character is as it relates to dreams and identity?
King: Thatās what I love that we got to really see with this show. Because sheās growing up in a time where sheās supposed to be content with the identity of wife and mother.
Finnie: Because that was success at the time.
King: That was success. That was safety. And so going beyond those bounds, trying to work, trying to be further educated, aspiring to all of that ā I loved how her idea of safety and her husbandās idea of safety were two different ideas. His was, āYou keep your head down, you do your work, you earn your money, your kids get to go to a nice school and be safe and live.ā While her idea of safety is, āWe have to change the society within where we live, or else our children will never be safe. They will never have a future. They will never get to live.ā And getting to see them have that conversation, to me, was really essential in understanding what Black parenthood is now, today, and has continued to be. And so her identity and her dreams, from the outside, are in conflict with one another because she dreams for so much more. But for herself, her dreams are not separate from her identity because that is who she is. She is someone who takes action. She was always going to take action regardless of whatever box someone wanted to put her in. She was always going to explore a way out of that and try to expand peopleās ideas and possibilities of not only what they could be, but what she herself could be.
I think too, and I wonāt limit it to just motherhood, but I do think there is something about motherhood that expands you in such a way because you know if youāre not living life to the fullest, how can your children ever begin to think that they could do that? If you canāt expand your own bounds of your mind to what is possible for yourself, then our children remain in these tiny, limited boxes.
Finnie: Perpetuating an idea.
King: Because society creeps in no matter what you do. My parents tried to tell me I had endless possibilities, but society crept in because I would watch TV or Iād look at a magazine and Iād be like, āOh, I donāt look like these people so this is not for me.ā So now imagine being in a time ā
Finnie: There were laws put in place that said you cannot be ā
King: Covenants that said you cannot live here. You cannot buy anything here. A period in a time where a woman couldnāt have a credit card unless a man signed off on it. You didnāt own your own being.
Finnie: Had no agency.
King: You had no agency. But imagine growing up in a time where you had no agency and having the audacity to think, āI should.ā
Finnie: And can and will.
King: That I deserve to have agency and I will fight to bend your mind to believe it too. And that is who Harriet is.
Finnie: I know that you also had cultural consultant on set.
King: Dr. Shamell Bell.
Finnie: I can only imagine learning about the real Sugar Hill. And the thing about it is, you had a Hattie McDaniel, you had a Ray Charles.
King: This was an affluent Black neighborhood that was destroyed by the highway commission because they had a choice to put it through Sorority Row near USC or to uproot all these families using eminent domain ā we all know how that goes down ā just displacing that entire community. Itās not OK to do it anywhere, but to just know that there was so much art and creativity, these salons happening, this cultural epicenter of this joyful life just being broken up.
Finnie: For a highway.
King: Itās devastating. And I didnāt even know about it. I had no idea… that it occurred, right there in downtown.
Finnie: How did that impact you? … How did this make you a different person, this character? What lives with you from Harriet?
King: Itās one of those things where youāre like, āOK, not surprised. Like, of course. Whatās new.ā But I love Harrietās vision. I really do. My son is still young, but my son was very young when I was filming this and it is such a fine line we walk as parents, trying to give so much to your children and still have ownership over yourself. Harriet reminded me that I still owe something to myself in my own moments of peace and joy that are separate from me as a mother. And it is so important to gift myself that. To understand that the idea of love is not wasting all that you have to give it to someone else so that thereās nothing left for you, but that love should be, āI am taking such great care of myself that you can learn and benefit from and that you can understand that when you love someone, it is not to destroy yourself.
Finnie: In pursuit of loving them.
King: Exactly. Because I canāt give my child the idea, and I canāt parent or or exist as a human being within the idea, that I only did a good job of loving you if I had nothing left for me. Thatās horrible and not sustainable. And I also would not want that for my son. I would not want him to love in that way, because I donāt think that engenders respect or boundaries, which are really important things, which are essential to say, āI matter. I still matter too. I will love you, but I will also love myself.ā
Finnie: I feel like āLessons in Chemistryā is a metaphor for life. So if it wasnāt āLessons in Chemistryā but āLessons in _____,ā how would you rename the title?
King: āLessons in Audacity.ā
Finnie: I love that.
King: Because thereās a daring to these people in this story ā a boldness and a daring to at least try to live the way you want to live, which you have to do with an unparalleled audaciousness.
Carrie Preston in āElsbeth.ā
(Elizabeth Fisher/CBS)
Yvonne Villarreal: Jon and Michelle, thanks so much for joining me.
Michelle King: Absolutely.
Villarreal: Congratulations are in order. You guys were renewed for Season 2 of āElsbeth.ā Michelle, youāve been in this position many times, but does getting a show renewal in todayās landscape feel any more challenging or harder to predict than even five years ago?
King: Yes. It just feels maybe a little bit more special because there are fewer shows, there are fewer spaces. So yeah, it was a thrill.
Jonathan Tolins: Mostly it was a feeling of relief because so much of the first season, you just are constantly thinking of how do we get it beyond the first season? How do we earn that pickup? And so to get there, itās like now itās going to be easy.
Villarreal: Well, letās talk about the genesis of this project. Michelle, you and Robert King, your husband and writing partner, were sort of looking for something that was less laborious to watch during the pandemic, right? And you were sort of like, can we get something like āColumboā? Talk to me about how it sort of then came to fruition.
King: We very much enjoyed āColumboā during the pandemic, and we love Carrie Preston. We love Elsbeth Tascioni. They were just kind of a natural fit. And the idea ā we werenāt looking to continue āThe Good Wifeā universe, per se, and we actually didnāt think we were continuing [it]. It was just, āOh, that character fits so beautifully in that genre. Wouldnāt that be fun?ā So that that was the road.
Villarreal: Was a just a natural thing because she [Elsbeth] had been conceived as a Columbo-like character? There was no consideration of āLetās start with a new characterā?
King: No, no, never crossed our mind. No, we absolutely knew: Oh, sheās our gal for this show.
Villarreal: So, how do you think about āhow do we build this out into something that is āColumboā-esque?ā
King: Just starting with the: āOK, what is her world? She isnāt a detective. Sheās a lawyer. So what is a logical way to get her involved with the police department? And then we like the idea of bringing her to New York, because, first of all, fish out of water. Sheās a Midwesterner. [We] get to see New York, and fancy New York, through her eyes, which was very appealing to us.
[Soundbite from āElsbeth.ā]
Carrie Preston (as Elsbeth Tascioni): You know, Iām new to the city. Can you help me find an apartment?
Jane Krakoswi (as Joann, a real estate agent): Oh, Iād be glad to refer you to the appropriate broker.
Preston (as Elsbeth): I think I want you. Can I ā
Krakowski (as Joann): Hmm, my plate is pretty full.
Preston (as Elsbeth): Iām more like a side dish. Do you have a card?
Krawkowski (as Joann): Oh … I rushed here from the office and forgot my bag.
Preston (as Elsbeth): Too bad.
Villarreal: Jon, youāve worked on āThe Good Fightā before. What do you get with Elsbeth at the center of a series that different than Alicia [Florrick, played by Julianna Margulies] in āThe Good Wifeā or [Diane Lockhart, played by] Christine Baranski in āThe Good Fightā?
Tolins: Well, itās a whole feeling. This is not a political show whereas āThe Good Fightā very much was. Itās also not an issue-based show, although we find, as writers, ways to sort of put in things we find interesting and [that] comments on the world, as in the course of our cases and all that. This show is its own thing. Itās this sort of very funny, serious cop show. One of the things we learned early on was that it works best when we play it like a very straight CBS procedural, with this quirky character thrown in the middle of it, questioning everything. And I always say that I ā this wasnāt the plan ā but somehow I ended up in the perfect position to work on this show, because the last three TV shows I did before this were āThe Good Fight,ā āSchmigadoon!ā and āEast New York.ā And if you put those three shows in a blender, thatās sort of how you end up with.
Villarreal: āThe Good Wifeā and āThe Good Fightā open with these crystallizing moments for the main characters. But āElsbethā doesnāt have the same sort of personal or introspective launching point. We find that sheās there [in New York] as an impartial observer of the NYPD on their murder investigations. But we also later find out sheās actually gathering evidence on Wendell Pierceās character, Capt. Wagner, in this police corruption investigation. How did you decide on that as the launching point? And do you see any character development for Elsbeth in this weekly case format?
King: We knew we were doing an episodic show, that was our intention, as opposed to something like āThe Good Fight,ā which was far more heavily serialized, and taking āColumboā as a model. You donāt learn that much about Colombo. You donāt go home with Colombo. So weāre breaking the mold somewhat, but weāre breaking it gently. Jon and the writers are breaking it gently.
Tolins: Youāre spending so much time with this character now, which is such a luxury because sheās so delightful. We slowly peel the onion as we go, and one of the things we found thatās very helpful is that what makes the show work, I think, well, is that each episode feels different because we pick a different slice of life, usually moneyed New York, and we dig into that and we build the case with that, the clues come out of the specifics of that world, which always make it a little bit juicier and a little bit more fun.
[Soundbite from āElsbeth.ā]
Retta (as elite matchmaker Margo Clarke): He was so upset, he wanted to talk in person. Excuse me. What are you doing?
Preston (as Elsbeth): Your rug is missing. See, thereās an outline where a rug used to be.
Retta (as Margo) Youāre very observant.
Preston (as Elsbeth): Oh, no. Not really. I just, notice things that are odd.
Tolins: But we also use the specifics of that case as a way to find some new aspect of Elsbeth that we learn something about. So when she was in a case where it was a high-priced matchmaker, she starts talking about her romantic history. So we just try to find organic, natural ways to sort of learn a little bit more about her. And one of the nice things is that sheās in this sort of partnership with Kaya, Carra Pattersonās character. Kaya is our representative of trying to figure out this woman. So weāre excited to have more and more time to find out things about her.
Villarreal: Studios love remakes, reboots, franchises, and that comes with audience expectations. What do you enjoy about working with a known character? What is the sort of creative challenge or joy of that for both of you?
King: In terms of audience expectation of a character, the nice thing is, one doesnāt have to know the character from previous shows to enjoy this show. Studios test shows. And so they did the test and the folks in the focus group were asked if they they loved the show. They didnāt know the character.
Tolins: There were 19 [episodes] with Elsbeth in them on āThe Good Wifeā and āThe Good Fight.ā And so thereās a voice that you can have in your head as a writer. And just so much of this is about just trying to listen to that sense of, does that feel right? And you have a lot more to go on when you have a character whoās had that many outings and you can hear her in your head and, just sort of follow that instinct.
Villarreal: Tell me what it was like in the āGood Fightā writers room when you knew that you were going to be having Elsbeth in an episode.
Tolins: It always came out of, well, who would be a fun lawyer for this? Is Carrie Preston available? That was always sort of the first question. And I have to say, I happened to be the writer of record on the last two episodes that Elsbeth appeared on, and I think thatās sort of how I ended up in this job, because I think Robert and Michelle liked the way I wrote her and thought of me when they started this. So, always do your best.
Villarreal: What is the trick to writing her? What can you have fun with in terms of dialogue and everything?
Tolins: Hereās the thing. They say, oh, sheās quirky ā a lot of that comes from the [fact] that she will tell the truth about things. I think a lot of how you write her is you pay attention to every little thing in your own head that notices something odd or weird or contradictory, and you let the characters say it.
[Soundbite from āElsbeth.ā]
Preston (as Elsbeth): Itās just when the Russians assassinate someone, theyāre trying to make a point, you know, to scare the next person who thinks of speaking out.
Blair Underwood (as tennis coach Cliff McGrath): Killing a tennis giant on the sportās biggest stage is making a point.
Preston (as Elsbeth): Well, except for you, and a few people online, no oneās really suggesting them, and their people havenāt leaked anything to change that. So kind of defeats the purpose, doesnāt it?
Tolins: Also, one of the great things about writing for Carrie Preston is that you can do that in a line, and you donāt have to put in parenthetical (a new thought). She will find every divergent path, which is so delightful.
Villarreal: Carrie talks a lot about how all of the pauses that are written in help her.
Tolins: The first time I heard her read through [the script], it was actually the first [episode] we filmed after the pilot, it was that, oh, itās coming out of her mouth the way I had it in my head. So, I felt really confident that, āOK, she and I, we have a sort of mind meld about how this character thinks.ā Again, so much of it is instinct and itās so much of it is not [about] you decide how youāre going to do it. You just have to follow that sort of unconscious sense of who the character is.
Villarreal: Something that I love is just even how she enters the scene. Sheāll just pop in from the side.
Tolins: Thatās something that happened when Robert was directing the pilot.
King: Yeah, I was going to say that that came about with Robert directing the pilot.
Villarreal: Really? Okay.
King: That fun sideways [appearance]. And then suddenly it became a signature. That was found.
Villarreal: Is it then written into scripts now?
Tolins: Oh, yes. Itās funny, in the finale, I wonāt give too much away, but Elsbethās being trained to walk on a runway in a fashion show. And this model, played by Laura Benanti, says, āYou, stand up straighter, straighter!ā And she [Elsbeth] says, āSorry, I tend to lean into things.ā So, yeah, we pay attention. And all the directors know that thatās something. And they always find new fun ways for her to pop into frame.
Villarreal: Well, Jon, I know during the strike you spent part of that time rewatching āColumboā … or watching it for the first time?
Tolins: I had seen a bunch of them when I was a kid. And some of them, watching them again, I totally remembered exactly ā like the Ruth Gordon one. I totally remembered. But yeah, I watched all of them.
Villarreal: Talk to me about what that did for you and what the note-taking was like. What were you looking for in terms of how they worked with clues or what kind of cases they were doing?
Tolins: What I tried to do is I paid attention to what I found I liked the best. When I felt like, oh, thatās a really good thing. The thing that makes it work the best is when, and this is a very TV thing to say, but itās when you can play at home. I love it when the whole thing hinges on a clue that I should have seen. I had every opportunity to see that and I didnāt see it! And itās that thatās really the fun. So we try to do that as often as we can.
Villarreal: How was it deciding what would be the case to launch in the pilot? What do you remember you and Robert discussing for that?
King: Well, we wanted to highlight that Elsbeth was an outsider. We wanted to find a world that was somewhat pretentious and specific to New York, and this idea of performance and someone who was cutting through performance just was very appetizing to us.
Tolins: The pilot brings up a question that sort of hangs over the entire character in series, which is when is she acting and when is she not? We donāt always decide, and Carrie doesnāt always decide. She plays everything real. But how much of it is naive and how much of it is absolutely calculated?
Villarreal: This season weāve seen her sniff out a tennis playerās father killing the competitor, the Andy Cohen-like reality TV producer offing one of his starlets. What makes for a good case for Elsbeth? And how much are you thinking about New York as a backdrop to this?
Tolins: We think of New York all the time. I always say pay attention to Page Six every day and New York magazine. Basically what makes a good case is something that everyone in the writers room goes, āoh, yes!ā This is something I learned from working with Robert and Michelle, that so much of doing this kind of show, or any show, is feeling the temperature in the writers room of when something is really hot and everyoneās excited because thatās when you know thereās something there.
Villarreal: I also know that youāre not big on violence. The use of a gun is maybe used once in the season.
Tolins: Once, the finale is the only time we use.
Villarreal: What challenge does that create? Or is it more creatively freeing to think outside the box?
Tollins: It forces us to to come up with something thatās a little bit more creative. I also just, I hate violence. Itās not my thing. And I donāt think a show starring Elsbeth Tascioni solving crimes is one where you want to see a lot of blood or that kind of anger. It just doesnāt feel right, tonally.
King: Youāre so right. Itās the anti-grit show.
Villarreal: āElsbethā and āPoker Face,ā another series that pays homage to āColumbo,ā both show the audience who the culprit is at the beginning of of the episode. What do you enjoy about Solve This With Us versus the whodunit approach to the mystery series?
Tolins: I think the big difference ā and I love āPoker Faceā too ā there are certain main differences that I feel, oh, weāre not doing the same thing, thank God. The big difference is there are always scenes where the audience knows something that Elsbeth doesnāt. You wouldnāt have that if you didnāt do the howdunnit format. And so really the real fun of watching an actor play a character who is lying, and we know for a fact theyāre lying, is different. Itās a different kind of fun. Now, that said, we are breaking form sometimes, and sometimes we are not always playing it the same way. When I started, I thought, oh God, this is going to be so hard to keep coming up with these [cases] in a way thatās satisfying. You usually show the murder, but you donāt always show all the clues of how sheās going to [figure it out]. We try to dole out the information so there are twists and turns, but I kind of feel freed by it a little bit. Iāve learned that itās sort of like working in the sonata form; you have a basic form that you can keep pushing at the edges of and try to find new ways to do it, but still come to a satisfactory conclusion.
Villarreal: Shows that are similar, at least on paper, are not uncommon in Hollywood. When in the development process did you hear about āPoker Face,ā and how do you sort of not let that sort of infiltrate how you think about the show?
King: We certainly had the idea before we knew that that was a thing. I canāt remember at what point we saw the show. Hereās what I will say: Robert and I have never developed a show where there wasnāt a competing show. I no longer give it a minuteās thought because it is always the case and fine. So either we get on the air or we donāt.
Tolins: Itās a very different slice of life and world and Charlie [Natasha Lyonneās character in āPoker Faceā] is a very different character than Elsbeth. Also, they do something that is kind of wonderful, but I donāt think would work for us: the way they play with the timeline much more thoroughly than we ever do ā usually because what they do is, usually, you see the whole crime and then you go back and you see how Charlie was actually there the whole time. I think that would be hard, first of all, with our time limitations and also being on network where it takes, I think, more concentration to follow than we can count on necessarily [being on] Thursday nights at 10 p.m. on CBS. Also, they have the device that Charlie is able to tell when someoneās lying, which we donāt have. So I felt those were different enough. The voice is very different.
King: And the world is very different.
Tolins: Yeah, the world is totally different. … Yeah. The world is totally different. Much more dust.
Villarreal: Both of you have experience working on network and then having shows on streaming. What did you enjoy about the thought of returning to network TV with a procedural like this?
King: We never were anti-network. Iāll tell you what I enjoy about having it on network, which is so many more people are seeing it and enjoying it and letting us know. And thatās terrific. Thatās just the great fun of being able to reach a wider swath of folks rather than you know that they have to put down their $10.99 a month, whatever it is.
Villarreal: Jon, youāre in the position where youāre carrying out the vision set by Michelle and Robert. Were you hesitant about that or was that a nice challenge for you?
Tolins: Yes … tell me if Iām wrong [turns to King], but Robert and Michelle wrote the pilot, and everything you see in the pilot was there, but theyāve given me a lot of freedom beyond that to find it as we go. And then, of course, they see every story as we go; I donāt, I donāt feel hemmed in. I donāt have to think all the time, Will Robert and Michelle like this? I think we understand what the show is.
King: Absolutely.
Villarreal: What does a Robert or Michelle note look like?
Tolins: [laughs] I mean, theyāre worried about tonnage. Like, do we have too much of ā because, as we said, Elsbeth is a character that you can too much of. You have to always find just enough and just not too much. Itās more about that. Itās more about making sure we all feel like, yes, weāre on the right path.
Villarreal: Does that feel like a bigger challenge when the guest star each week is like the fourth character, but otherwise youāre youāve got three main [characters], which is Capt. Wagner, Elsbeth, and Kaya. Kaya, right? I was gong to say Carra but thatās the actressās name who plays her.
King: We really did that wrong. Hired a Carrie and a Carra. And Carra plays Kaya. That was a terrible error.
Villarreal: But when you have basically three main characters and you want to make sure the dosage of Elsbeth is right, is that a challenge when itās not like a bigger ensemble?
Tolins: Iāll tell you, the challenge for me was we have the demands of the procedural, and weāve got three characters ā wonderful actors ā who we want to make sure we keep involved. [With] āColombo,ā you barely knew anybody else. Occasionally they would have Steven Gilborn as the medical examiner. So itās been a challenge to find ways to make sure we were keeping our three [characters] interacting with each other and integral to the plot. I think weāve managed to find a way to keep that investigation that Elsbeth been on about her investigation into Capt. Wagner ā certainly online, everyoneās into that, more than I thought they would be.
Villarreal: Whatās a crucial quality youāve come to realize is necessary for a showrunner? And what did observing Robert and Michelle during [your time on āThe Good Fightā] teach you?
Tolins: Unflappability and calm, I think, are the best thing I learned. I always remember times when it felt like things werenāt working. And I do this now because Robert always did this in the room. He would just state where we are and what we are trying to figure out at this moment. Nothing else matters. Or like suddenly an actor who you had been planning this whole episode around is unavailable. You do not get emotional about it. You go, OK, what are the options? And you just have to move forward. Itās a train on a track and you have hundreds of people waiting for the next script and emotion does not help you in this job.
King: Youāre so right. The trick is always to fall forward. Itās not thinking thereās not going to be obstacles and you wonāt stumble. Itās always, how do we fall forward? Itās funny, I hadnāt thought about this in years, but a friend was working with a basketball player on a different thing, and the basketball player didnāt show up. And I realized, oh, we had that happen to us on āThe Good Wife.ā You rewrite and suddenly there is no basketball player. It [becomes] their agent. Because you canāt spend your life getting upset about who shows up on set. If they donāt show up on set, you better figure out something else to film.
Tolins: And the audience doesnāt know what happened.
King: Right. Until I spilled it on the L.A. Times video podcast.
Tolins: This year, with Episode 5, which was the tennis episode, it was written by a wonderful writer, Eric Randall. And Eric was expecting a baby. And so I wanted to move his episode earlier so it wouldnāt conflict. And everyone agreed that was a good idea, but it meant we were shooting in a very cold time of year. So we had an arrangement with one place that would have been perfect. But then that perfect place said, āThereās a murder? No, you canāt shoot here.ā And so we had to scramble and we had to make our own tennis court. Gail Barringer, whoās our line producer and co-executive producer ā talk about unflappable. It was just like: What can we do? What can we do?
Villarreal: Letās talk more about the guest stars. Because, as you said, sometimes the episodes change. Did you have a dream list going into this? How do you decide who works for whatever character or episode youāre trying to do? Because I imagine scheduling these very great guest stars is a challenge.
Tolins: I have to say, because of that, we donāt write to the performer, or at least we havenāt yet. We may be in a position now that the show is established, Iām hoping some people might say, āI really want to do an [episode of] āElsbeth,ā this is when Iām free,ā and then maybe we can do that. Although, I donāt trust it when they say that. We just really just write characters and then Findley Davidson, who is our casting director, and I and the writer of the episode, we just start the conversation and we make our lists and we just go.
Villarreal: Weāve obviously heard a lot about Elsbethās son this season, and he unintentionally gets into an entanglement with Capt. Wagner in terms of him sort of exerting his influence. Are we going to see Elsbethās son?
Tolins: Maybe. I mean, you never saw Mrs. Columbo until she got her own series. So, you know, watch out for Teddy Tascioni coming this fall! That came about because, when Robert and Michelle asked me to do this, I went and watched every episode Elsbeth ever appeared in. And Iāve been saying itās the first episode, but itās actually the second episode she appeared in on āThe Good Wife,ā where she mentions her son set her up with her computer. So we went back. We figured, OK, well, he was maybe like 10 years old then. So we figure heās mid-20s now. And we just thought, well, sheās a mother. And what kind of kid would she have? What kind of mother would she be? And itās opened up, actually, really lovely stuff for the character. But I donāt know what weāre going to do yet [with him].
Villarreal: I know weāre keeping the worlds separate, and this is very much not thought about as a spinoff, but we did hear a mention of Cary Agos [āThe Good Wifeā character played by Matt Czuchry]. Do you see a world eventually down the line where there might be these characters dropping in? Or itās like a TBD at this point?
Tolins: You going to pay for them? I love that a lot of fans of TV shows think of characters as like crayons that you can just pick up and use. But we still have the sort of the demands of our show, the setting, which is the fact that weāre in New York. And just in terms of a budget of how much we can do in an episode, there are a lot of considerations. I would love to have those people visit. The problem is, so much of our budget goes to whoās the murderer? I donāt want to see Diane Lockhart kill someone. So I would love it if we can work it out down the line. But again, this is a show that itās not really a spinoff, and it is set in New York. And I say, Iāve got friends in Chicago, I rarely see them.
Villarreal: Weāre about a year since the writersā strike went into effect. What are the shifts or changes since youāve gotten back to work? Is it things like the budget? What feels especially different?
King: There is certainly an awareness of budget. Look, network television was always budget-conscious. It has become more budget-conscious.
Tolins: I say for me, itās how many people I know who are out of work and how I wish I could hire them all.
Villarreal: Do you find that youāre thinking about streaming hours or algorithm in the ways that you were thinking about ratings? How does it sort of factor into your everyday process as a creative?
Tolins: Not at all for me.
King: I was going to say ā I donāt know about you, Jon, but not at all for me.
Tolins: I barely have enough time to try to make the show good. Thatās all you can do.
Villarreal: We know that the showās renewed for Season 2. When are things going to pick back up in the writers room for you?
King: When do we wrap up here? [laughs]
Tolins: I think by the end of the month.
Villarreal: Does your notes app have cases youāre already thinking about or guest stars you hope to get for Season 2 cases?
Tolins: Certainly. But I mean, because we only had nine new episodes to do in Season 1, and we had a much longer list than nine. So thereās a bunch weāll go back to and every once in a while something will happen and Iāll just go, oop, yeah. Iām always looking, always looking for fun ways to murder people.
Villarreal: Well, Iām very excited for the return of the series when it comes back next season. Itās been such a delight to watch. And thank you so much for joining me today.
Tolins: Thank you.
King: Good to see you.